Post by Observer on Oct 24, 2012 18:33:01 GMT
My bed my decision?
Dear "no point", you are getting as cryptic as Yawn! with your comment "made your bed, lie in it".
This statement is usually used to tell someone that they've made a decision now they must live with the consequences. I agree with this principle but I think you've missed my point, I assume I've understood yours.
I think you're saying "You moved to TCS so you've no right to complain". Well that is only partially true. Legal and General forced us to make a choice; either retire, leave and change career, leave and get a similar job somewhere else or move to TCS. Now I cannot remember exact dates but public discussion of the outsourcing deal occurred at the same time as the biggest financial crises since The Great Depression , to confirm I've taken these dates from the internet
Sept 2007, Northern Rock crises starts
Nov 2007, there are media reports that L&G are going to outsource us
By the time we were contractually moved over to TCS it was 2008, well let's face it all hell was breaking loose, if you ask the Greeks it still is.
It should also be noted that the move to TCS was the default option. If by the changeover date you were still an employee of L&G, and had not said "don't TUPE me" you became a TCS employee. If you did say "don't TUPE me" the day after change over you were unemployed!
So lets detail out the choices that staff could make and why they might reject them
1) Retire - financially impossible for many
2) Career change - starting on the bottom rung was again financially impossible for many
3) Resign - and take their chances on the job market during the financial crises. Some took this option, but many didn't. This option was a big risk especially if you have a family and a mortgage and many decided to make the best of a bad job and go to TCS. I guess people could have stuck to some kind of principle that the outsource was a betrayal and resign. And if they didn't get a new job they'd loose their homes and possibly go bankrupt. I'm sure their principles would not have kept them warm at night in the council accommodation they'd have ended up in.
4) Move to TCS. This looked like the safe option and the bed that many chose. Of course within a few months, to continue the analogy, this bed was "removed". L&G deceased the amount of work that they wanted TCS to do and about 40% of those who transfered were made redundant. I guess those that were left clung onto the life raft of TCS all the more
The ex-L&Gers who are still with TCS stay for various reason, some talk openly about why they stay in a job they hate in a 3rd rate company. Others seem to have come to an accommodation, I guess they stay because they feel they have a future at TCS. But many stay because, in the current economic climate, they feel they have no choice. They didn't choose the bed, but they have to lie in it. I would guess that given a better climate a high percentage would leave. So I'm not going to criticise anyone for choosing to stay or go, it's was a personal choice. But again this was a choice forced upon us all
But having made a choice, whichever one it was, does this mean that you can't post on the forum. If someone stays at TCS in order to pay the bills, or to get to a point that they can draw a pension, does this make them hypocrites if they now critisise L&G or TCS. I guess those that were made redundant might feel that we should not bite the hand that feeds us. I kind of "why are you complaining you've got a job" feeling. I'm sorry if people feel that way. However I don't agree. If someone has a point to make they should be able to make. These are some of my points;
1) If you're paid shed loads of cash and share options as a company director to make decisions and you make a bad decision then I think it's only fair that people call you on that decision. If you don't like being criticised (L&G directors) then "got out of the kitchen". Obviously it seems these days that execs don't agree with this policy. Utter failure due to incompetence should be rewarded by a big fat pay-off according to Mr F Goodwin.
2) The decision to outsource to TCS was bad for us and it's bad for UK PLC (I agree with Danger Closes' argument), but its also bad for L&G's long term profitability which effects its shareholders. These shareholders include employees and our pension companies.
3) Irrespective of my personal decisions I believe non of us deserved to be forced into making the decisions we had and are still having to make. There are no jobs for life we all know that, but attempting to "sell" us to a third rate company was well, bad for everyone. Of course we have to bear in mind that had we still been working for L&G many of us would have lost our jobs anyway due to the financial crises. But underlying the L&G plan was a desire to get rid of all of us as soon as TCS offshore could cope. Surely that was the point of the year on year increasing offshore/onshore ratio. The first 40% was an amputation, the rest including last years voluntery redundancies is part of a slow cancerous death. I assume when the contract is renewed next year (or moved) that the ratio will be set in such a way as to force more ex-L&Gers out year by year. Or maybe the coup de grace. L&G move the contract (and all the system documentation that TCS have written!!) to another provider but leave the staff at TCS. This would be an insane thing for L&G to do, I'm sure the L&G directors would not be that stupid. What does make me laugh however is the irony that many of us should thank TCS for their incompetence, as is their constant inability to delivery that is keeping the remnant in a job, despite the ratio
Other points
You're free to say I'm wasting my time, it's a free country when all said and done. But just a thought. How can you say that what I'm doing is pointless, when you don't know what I'm doing, you don't know what my plan is or whose helping me.
PS I'm aware that there have been other posts like yours that say “why bother” and “you deserved this". You and Yawn have a similar theme. Someone has pointed out to me that maybe you (aka "no point") and “yawn” are stalking horses trying to draw out peoples identities or just TCS or L&G staff “paid” to distract or disrupt the forum. Personally I'm not into conspiracy theories, I really don't think L&G/TCS could come up with such a “creative” idea. But I've made my point now as to why I hold L&G responsible for their decisions but not mine. And I know my plan and that includes speaking out. The plan does not include getting a written apology from the board. I'm really not that naive. I'm not going to take you're advice and go quietly into the night. But I don't intend to justify my opinion, my actions or my posts again. Your entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine
PPS I really really don't like the use of the word "scum"
Dear "no point", you are getting as cryptic as Yawn! with your comment "made your bed, lie in it".
This statement is usually used to tell someone that they've made a decision now they must live with the consequences. I agree with this principle but I think you've missed my point, I assume I've understood yours.
I think you're saying "You moved to TCS so you've no right to complain". Well that is only partially true. Legal and General forced us to make a choice; either retire, leave and change career, leave and get a similar job somewhere else or move to TCS. Now I cannot remember exact dates but public discussion of the outsourcing deal occurred at the same time as the biggest financial crises since The Great Depression , to confirm I've taken these dates from the internet
Sept 2007, Northern Rock crises starts
Nov 2007, there are media reports that L&G are going to outsource us
By the time we were contractually moved over to TCS it was 2008, well let's face it all hell was breaking loose, if you ask the Greeks it still is.
It should also be noted that the move to TCS was the default option. If by the changeover date you were still an employee of L&G, and had not said "don't TUPE me" you became a TCS employee. If you did say "don't TUPE me" the day after change over you were unemployed!
So lets detail out the choices that staff could make and why they might reject them
1) Retire - financially impossible for many
2) Career change - starting on the bottom rung was again financially impossible for many
3) Resign - and take their chances on the job market during the financial crises. Some took this option, but many didn't. This option was a big risk especially if you have a family and a mortgage and many decided to make the best of a bad job and go to TCS. I guess people could have stuck to some kind of principle that the outsource was a betrayal and resign. And if they didn't get a new job they'd loose their homes and possibly go bankrupt. I'm sure their principles would not have kept them warm at night in the council accommodation they'd have ended up in.
4) Move to TCS. This looked like the safe option and the bed that many chose. Of course within a few months, to continue the analogy, this bed was "removed". L&G deceased the amount of work that they wanted TCS to do and about 40% of those who transfered were made redundant. I guess those that were left clung onto the life raft of TCS all the more
The ex-L&Gers who are still with TCS stay for various reason, some talk openly about why they stay in a job they hate in a 3rd rate company. Others seem to have come to an accommodation, I guess they stay because they feel they have a future at TCS. But many stay because, in the current economic climate, they feel they have no choice. They didn't choose the bed, but they have to lie in it. I would guess that given a better climate a high percentage would leave. So I'm not going to criticise anyone for choosing to stay or go, it's was a personal choice. But again this was a choice forced upon us all
But having made a choice, whichever one it was, does this mean that you can't post on the forum. If someone stays at TCS in order to pay the bills, or to get to a point that they can draw a pension, does this make them hypocrites if they now critisise L&G or TCS. I guess those that were made redundant might feel that we should not bite the hand that feeds us. I kind of "why are you complaining you've got a job" feeling. I'm sorry if people feel that way. However I don't agree. If someone has a point to make they should be able to make. These are some of my points;
1) If you're paid shed loads of cash and share options as a company director to make decisions and you make a bad decision then I think it's only fair that people call you on that decision. If you don't like being criticised (L&G directors) then "got out of the kitchen". Obviously it seems these days that execs don't agree with this policy. Utter failure due to incompetence should be rewarded by a big fat pay-off according to Mr F Goodwin.
2) The decision to outsource to TCS was bad for us and it's bad for UK PLC (I agree with Danger Closes' argument), but its also bad for L&G's long term profitability which effects its shareholders. These shareholders include employees and our pension companies.
3) Irrespective of my personal decisions I believe non of us deserved to be forced into making the decisions we had and are still having to make. There are no jobs for life we all know that, but attempting to "sell" us to a third rate company was well, bad for everyone. Of course we have to bear in mind that had we still been working for L&G many of us would have lost our jobs anyway due to the financial crises. But underlying the L&G plan was a desire to get rid of all of us as soon as TCS offshore could cope. Surely that was the point of the year on year increasing offshore/onshore ratio. The first 40% was an amputation, the rest including last years voluntery redundancies is part of a slow cancerous death. I assume when the contract is renewed next year (or moved) that the ratio will be set in such a way as to force more ex-L&Gers out year by year. Or maybe the coup de grace. L&G move the contract (and all the system documentation that TCS have written!!) to another provider but leave the staff at TCS. This would be an insane thing for L&G to do, I'm sure the L&G directors would not be that stupid. What does make me laugh however is the irony that many of us should thank TCS for their incompetence, as is their constant inability to delivery that is keeping the remnant in a job, despite the ratio
Other points
You're free to say I'm wasting my time, it's a free country when all said and done. But just a thought. How can you say that what I'm doing is pointless, when you don't know what I'm doing, you don't know what my plan is or whose helping me.
PS I'm aware that there have been other posts like yours that say “why bother” and “you deserved this". You and Yawn have a similar theme. Someone has pointed out to me that maybe you (aka "no point") and “yawn” are stalking horses trying to draw out peoples identities or just TCS or L&G staff “paid” to distract or disrupt the forum. Personally I'm not into conspiracy theories, I really don't think L&G/TCS could come up with such a “creative” idea. But I've made my point now as to why I hold L&G responsible for their decisions but not mine. And I know my plan and that includes speaking out. The plan does not include getting a written apology from the board. I'm really not that naive. I'm not going to take you're advice and go quietly into the night. But I don't intend to justify my opinion, my actions or my posts again. Your entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine
PPS I really really don't like the use of the word "scum"